Interview with Lhakpa Tsering – Refugee Narratives

This is the transcript for Lhakpa Tsering’s interview with PPS students. You can find the Story Map PPS students made depicting Lhakpa’s story here.

Tue, May 07, 2024 5:29PM • 1:22:32

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

tibetan, tibet, tibetans, theater, people, chinese, struggle, india, community, exile, schools, protests,
children, put, parents, started, good, china, indian, give

FH:
So our first question will be, can you introduce yourself, tell us where you’re from in Tibet.
LT::
I was born in a small village called Lompoc, which is comes under the district of Shannan in the southern part of Tibet and my village is the most close village towards India. From my village, then Tibet finishes okay, then it comes to the Indian border. And towards the north eastern part of India,
there’s a state called Arunachal Pradesh, India. So, my village is bordered to that and halfway bordered to Bhutan. And so, I was born in 1983, and, uh, my dad was from Chamdo which is the eastern part of Tibet and my mom belongs to my native region which I told you before. And when was three, my dad passed away, and my mom remarried when I was six. Then after that, then my stepfather tortures me a lot I couldn’t… like he used to beat me a lot. Because of me, he used to beat my mom a lot. I couldn’t bear his torture, like it’s not a simple thing like he used to not only the physically torturing but also mentally he used to make a lot of tortures. Like early in the morning he will ask me to go to wash clothes in the icy water and then after that coming back then he forced me to put my hand on fire when you wash your everything in the icy water and then you suddenly put your hand on the fire that pain you cannot like imagine how painful it is. Such things he used to do then when I go to mountains, he used to take me to take a cut the firewood in the mountains and then while we are taking back it with carry on my back he used to make so many corners towards the backside and like wood corners. So then without rest I have to bring it back. So that will make so
many wounds on the backside. And then again he always used to like angle so many like sharp wood towards my wounds also such kind of thing. Then while we are going to look after the animals and the mountain, he used to run so fast. Keep in mind I’m very small, right? So about six, seven years old. So he used to go way too fast on the mountain and then he used to throw stones on me like “come fast come fast” such kind of tortures like which I cannot forget these things like in the night in the tent in the Nomad’s tent, we used to make fire in the middle. So, I was sleeping here, he was sleeping on the other side, in the night like he act as if he asleep. And he used to have fire wood fire with the wood and he used to throw me like this some marks are still here. So such kind of tortures he used to do and also like he used to beat me my leg, and I was like my legs are all swollen. But I cannot go with cripple. I have to go straight-backed like such kind of torture, mental torture, right? So he used to do so many things.

So I tried to run inside Tibet two times, like here and there as a small child. But you know, like if you go run away from the home all the like, near village people or something they will say like don’t run away, you go back to home, they will drop me back to home and all these things. But in my village, Chinese militaries always used to tell us that India is our enemy. Always like because our village is most near to the border. So that’s why they are like always village people or the civil military people, civilians who are fighting for the future projection of the land. They’re saying like, like Russia did in the Second World War kind of thing. Right. So civil military, so they always give training to us. When I at the age of six, I remember they will teach us… we have a special period in our class so that we can clean the guns, set the guns and everything… AK 47 kind of guns. So once you get to age 13, you should know how to shoot the gun and everything, once you get to age 18, then you should know how to defuse the bomb and everything so that means like the whole village were trained military, like in the military.

So that’s why like then I in my mind is like, if I go to enemies, run away to enemies place then no one can catch me like so, with having that mind at the age of nine, I just crossed the border without knowing anything. Like so, I thought like India is our enemy if I go to enemies place, then no one can catch me, so with that idea, I crossed the border and came to India, then there are so long stories in the way so it will take more time. So then I escaped to India, then with the help from the Central Tibetan Administration, they took me from the Indian border police… actually I was in the border for almost four months they were like talking with the Indian border police. Then after that, then with the help from the Central Tibetan Administration, I was bring back to Dharamsala and then I was admitted to the Tibetan children’s village school. There is a school on the mountain. So that was purposely built for the children- orphaned and semi orphaned children. So that’s why. Then I was there and from there I did till my class 10. Then I went to another branch of this school in South India, where I choose to the stream commerce. So then commerce is in South India. So then I went to a Tibetan settlement, the biggest settlements in India is in South India. So I went there, I studied till my class 12. Then I did my master’s degree from the Bangalore University, Bangalore, my university.
After that, then in 2006, during the college time, I was so much active in politics and activism. So because before when I was in Tibet, I never know about what Tibet is. Nothing, anything. I never see a monk also, I never seen a nun in my village. I never see a monastery in my village. Because it was all
destroyed by the Chinese, and nothing is there. So. So that’s why then when I came here, then I knew that or what religion that is, and how Tibetans have suffered and everything, then I felt like oh, now I become a real Tibetan now.

So then my activism grown so much like I felt like so much, guilty for myself, so I have to do something, because in my village, only I knew that Tibet is something. So then I was more involved in the activism a lot. Then I did, like the regional president of the student councils. There are so many NGOs, regional NGOs. I, when I was in college, I handled many NGOs in college and then Tibetan Youth Congress is the biggest NGO in exile community. So then I was president of the Tibetan Youth Congress. And during that time, in 2006, Chinese President Hu Jintao came to Mumbai. And that is a first ever a Chinese President visit to India in history of communism. So then, he was also a leader of the Tibetan… Chinese used to say like TAR- Tibet Autonomous Region. So he’s the leader of that area. So then turning that time in 1987 to 91. So during that time, he killed so many Tibetans like he ordered martial law inside Tibet and he killed 1000s and 1000s of Tibetans, like innocent Tibetans. Like if three or four people get together, directly shot in front of the like the street, such kind of blow he made. So then he became the president of the China. So then, he came to Mumbai and many Tibetans has protests in Mumbai, Delhi.

So I tried to myself immolate myself in front of the Taj Hotel in Mumbai. But really luckily, I was saved by some Indian police and some foreigners and my fire was extinguished, but I was hospitalized for almost eight months in Bangalore and Mumbai. After that, then I was elected as the Tibetan Youth Congress, executive member, central executive member, till then 2007 to 2010 I was an executive member of Tibetan Youth Congress. During that time I read so many freedom struggle books about other countries, French Revolution, Indian freedom struggles. During that time, I found that theater has put so much energy and potential in the struggle there. Because theater has united the people, they have like, theater developed a lot in the struggle of other histories. So then I felt like this is absent in our struggle. So then in 2010, I resigned from the TYC. And then I started theater in 2011. My theater is to develop- we always focus on the China. So sometimes we have to think within what we are doing mistakes with having such ideas I started the theater like a political theater. And then I keep awareness about what we are doing mistakes through the theater, what we should check and look within our community in exile. So such kind of topics. Till now I’m working as a theater artist. So this is a brief history of mine.

ML:
Thank you for sharing.

LT:
Maybe too long.
ML:
Oh, no, not at all.
MS:
There is no such thing as too long.
FH:
And I think it’s important what you’re telling us, we’re glad that you’re sharing it with us.
ML:
My question is when you started getting into theater, where were you still in the South?
LT:
No, I already told you I was

ML:
Oh, you were already physically here.

LT:
I was already the Youth Congress executive member, head offices in Dharamsala. I resigned, and then I started here.
ML:
Gotcha.
FH:
Can I ask you back to your childhood? How would you say the schools were different when you were in Tibet? And when you came to school here, like what was the main difference of school?
ML:
Were you in school in Tibet?
LT:
The main difference is in Tibet, everything is like under control, under control. under control, everything is under control. Especially the textbooks on Chinese communism is very systematic, and we used to during our time in Tibet, we used to say that China is destroying our culture, our language and everything; they are not allowing us to learn Tibetan. And during that time, the Chinese government is teaching Tibetan very well inside Tibet, in the schools. Purpose is that without teaching a proper Tibetan, Tibetan cannot learn communism. Because it’s very difficult to teach Chinese language directly. So Chinese government made a policy to like teach Tibetans first to the children and all the textbooks are stories and everything is all about war and the communism and that that idea put so much in children then they will make the children… are very like… later when children grows up, they will feel communism’s so powerful. Then they start teaching the children Chinese language and everything should turn what Chinese Government says. During our time mostly like books that are all
about Marxism and all about Socialism, all about Karl Marx, all about Lenin but not the better part of the learning of Karl Marx. And every advices and every like, stories or articles in the textbooks, all are all about communism.

So from the small child they used to teach Tibetan very good then children will learn to read Tibetan and they will memorize everything like we have we have so many like things to memorize like songs or something like so, along with the students study. So that’s why this is different. But in exile, not very systematic. Maybe teachings are basic things. So especially the Tibetan language and even the English or math, whatever they don’t care much about when children are small. Textbooks are very thin when we’re in the class one or something. In Tibet, in class one, we have six books to learn, like, memorize. But here children get very good marks without learning anything like they will get 800 or something, the parents are very happy, my children, but then once children grow up, then pressure putting more on the children, but they don’t have much basic, they didn’t learn much, once they get about age 9,10, 13, then their memory power of memorizing is slowing down. So then, without having a better background,, then in exile they will teach a lot of importance of Buddhism. Then Buddhism’s things, philosophy of Buddhism, put into text, then teach, then children only don’t know any
meaning, but like parents, they will memorize or write in length later then once they grew up then, once children get- like reach class, 6,7,8,10, their marks will become lower and lower. Then parents will blame on children, he or she was very good when she was children and small. Now he’s becoming
worse and worse, but they’re actually not mistakes of children. But from the basic level teachings has little… because they don’t care much for the kids, small kids. And then once they little grew up, then they started teaching high high things. So children doesn’t have much basic language knowledge and
they cannot understand what are meanings. So, this is the difference was what I found between the schools. But now what is totally different in Tibet. Now, Chinese government policy of teaching Tibetan is already done now. Because generation has already changed. Now, my generation, now they are
become like more like- how to say? They all are more under speaking Chinese system because so many challenges will come now they don’t have to teach much Tibetan to the children to learn communism. From the parent, just like they already know. Because during our time our our parents
doesn’t know Chinese language. So without teaching Tibetan, they cannot do anything. So now parents also speak Chinese a lot, a lot like as we are speaking English and like all the YouTube channels are all in English, Hindi. So kids will learn easily right? Now China tip it already turns that way. So now they are teaching everything they are trying the best to like teaching everything in Chinese language and extinct the Tibetan identity. This is the experience what I felt.
FH:
Thank you. Do you maybe want to do we have a picture or an object and you want to share with us? That you could show us right now? Yes, if you want to share? You don’t have to if you don’t want to

LT:
Yeah, I will. I will send you later.
FH:
Okay, that’s fine, though.
LT:
I’ll keep searching and time wasting!
MS:
Can I ask you something? How specifically in your, in your theater… what are like the ways that you are using it to like um…the ways that you want to use theater to like, to, like reinforce the Tibetan community?
LT:
I didn’t understand very good.
ML:
How do you see your theater’s role?
LT:
My English is very poor.
ML:
It really isn’t, we’re very impressed. But how do you see your theaters role?

LT: Oh! My theater’s role! In the society?
FH:
Yes. Especially for Tibetans.
LT:
Purposely, as I told you a little bit about my teacher, my purpose of building theater in Tibetan community I told you already. So my role. My role in our society is that actually Tibet theater is just like a new born baby in our community. When I started, because Tibetan culture doesn’t have, like, it doesn’t have an interest of theater. So nowadays little parents… maybe some parents, I might be saying. But during the early days, maybe during 2011, 2012 none of the parents told the children, “go to acting school”. None of them. Because we don’t have- from the traditionally, theater artists are
considered as looking down… more look down. Because in Tibet, this kind of acting and everything we are like, we consider it as beggars. In Tibet, beggars, they used to go in the street, and we do some of our own traditional kinds of theaters. Do theater or mono acting theater, there are a lot of thing, and so they will act during the Tibetan years, and then they beg and we will give them food. So, because like, if we do something on the stage, people will sell… we call them a taker. Taker. So people will say like, taker, taker means it’s like an ego-hurting voice. so that’s why we don’t have much culture. So then, but I found theater has loads of roles to do like on exile community who is struggling for nation, because… so now my role is that. Uniting the community through the theater, and another thing is that bringing out the mistakes of the society through the theater, and taking them towards more improvement through the theater, and preservation of of our culture and language, giving message about preservation of our culture and language to the students, or kids or public, or parents through the theater. So giving workshop or something or like giving a speech or something, people doesn’t like, concentrate much, and they don’t keep much in their mind. If we act and make like, for example, if you watch a film then keep in mind, long term life stories, whatever. So that’s why like, there will give more potential and more powerful to like, keep awareness to the society and especially the endangered diseases like aids or hepatitis or like these kinds of diseases. So Tibetan community is very small, and but all are very much interlinked to each other, like we always like help each other and we’re close to each other, all Tibetans wherever, like you go. So in such community, if some endangered disease comes, society might be like, ended within five, six years, like so. So that’s why like, I always use to keep awareness about
endangered diseases to the family of the bases because Tibetan people are a little bit shy person and especially with respect between parents and children a lot. So that’s why like, they feel shy to like, give advices about sexual things and everything. So, that’s why like through theater, if we perform on the stage, and everyone will understand and know. Even like lecturers, when they go to like from the CTA, they also like try to like stay away from like doing some sexual education to the people or something.

So, these are my roles, main roles to do theater for the society and also preservation of the environment, women’s rights, I focus purposely, mostly focus more on the woman’s right, because from the outside when we see Tibetans have lots of rights for the woman’s like, but sometimes like in the
family business, tibetan womans have many problems. The family business like sometimes like parents, father, the the husbands are not very good. Sometimes they have to depend families are not good sometimes like there are a lot of problems, so many, and sometimes like harassment problems,
but because of this shyness and all, they couldn’t tell to the parents also sometimes tried to hide the daughters if daughters was harassed by someone, parents don’t tell much to the other people because like, if says like she she’s already raped by someone then parents feel shy or something like so, these kinds of problems are there in our community sometimes. So I used to focus such way also so, so many roles to do, which is not like really considering by the upper level.
ML:
Is there a theatre production or piece of work you’re most proud of, or a notable experience that you’ve had?
LT:
Now, my biggest production ever I have done is Pahlak. Pahlak is a play, which is…
FH:
How do you spell pahlak?
LT: P-A-H-L-A-K. Or P-H-A-L-A-K. They have written two different but because this was written by an Indian author. A play writer called a Abishek Majumdar. And he took almost three years to write that play under the sponsorship of Royal Court Theatre in England and universal responsibility of His Holiness Dalai Lama. There is an NGO with funds given from this to write the play. He wrote the play and he went to travel in Tibet, also in Nepal, also, in India, also he traveled everywhere in Tibetans… listen stories, and everything. So with research of almost three years, he wrote the play. And first performed in Royal Court Theatre in 2019, or 18. I think I forgot. Then during that time, Chinese government pressured a lot. And you couldn’t cast any Tibetan artists for this for that. So all the play was performed by the South East Asian people. So other didn’t satisfy it a lot. But production is Royal Court Theatre, so he couldn’t do much. So then, after that, he really wants to make the play into Tibetan language and performed by a Tibetan artist and I have linked with him since he was writing the play. We were very close to each other. I have shared a lot of experience about mine and also stories and I have named him with the __(not clear) also. So then he really wants to make it into Tibetan. And then I say- in around 2019, he’s talking about that. And I have also a friend, a German theatre director called Harry Furhman. He’s also very good and supportive for Tibetans. He used to come to Dharamsala to teach actors to the Tibetan Institute of performing arts and we worked together there in 2018. So then, I told him the idea about that and he said like, it’s very good and he will try with me, he will help me to direct with me. So then we started the play. And then I started translating it into Tibetan language from… and then we translate it and since 2019, we have struggled for that play. And in 2022, then is achieved. We have achieved the production. And some CTA has also funded half of the budget and then first ever Tibetan theater production has traveled to the national- in India to Indian theaters, big theaters. And we were selected into some big festivals, theater festivals also. And it was succeeded a lot. Then we went to Europe, in Germany and also in Switzerland. We have… we were like selected in the Ruhrfestspiele, which is one of the biggest Theatre Festivals in Europe. So, many things happened.

So this last year 2023, this is not only for me, in exile history, this is the first time a Tibetan theatre production with Tibetan artists has traveled the world with theater play. So this play is all about sufferings inside Tibet and power of non violence and freedom struggle of Tibetans. So giving a message to the world like, war cannot solve anything. Only the non violent part is the best thing to end up anything. So this is all about… play is all about that and it’s all about self immolations inside Tibet, how Chinese are torturing inside Tibet, and but why Tibetans are still… our struggle is alive and always like, a struggle is very young. Actually, China is very one of the most powerful nations in the world. But still we are very small number, but still, Tibetan struggle is very strong right now. So main reason is because of His Holiness Dalai Lama, but besides that, Tibetans always never give up. That is because
our belief is through non violence. So that’s why we were still alive. If we did some violent things, Chinese might be already like, Tibetans might be already finished now. So, so, it’s such message, this is the most successful production ever, not only me, in our exile history. So this is the biggest
achievement so far. Now, we are planning to do the next show in 2027. Play is write- writing in the process.
ML:
Are you helping with that writing process?
LT:
Yes, without me, he cannot do much. He don’t know much about Tibetans. So I have to be with him, but the writing skill of play is in his hand.
FH:
So you tell the story and he writes it?
LT:
Information is more discussing, because what he wants the story, he will choose,right? So to like, painting or to like corrections and everything, like what is the right thing? What is the wrong thing? That is my decision. So during the Tibetan part of play, we request him to rewrite the play also. So he rewrites the play and we have removed almost three three things like, almost one hour we removed from the play, which are not really necessary for the Tibetan struggle. But so many, like, some inner politics or something problems and all these things we don’t want to share much. So that’s… we have removed so he also allowed us to like, Okay, fine. So this we can do whatever I want.
FH:
Can I ask, has the Chinese government reacted to your success, as they like, have they said anything? Have they done anything against you or like, you know what I mean?
LT:
Chinese government always just did not directly for me, but some of our political prisoners who comes with us to do speech when we were performing and not more than that, not to us, because we have nothing so they cannot- even they force us, we cannot do anything, but they force a lot to of the theaters, big theaters in the Germany and especially in Austria. Our plan in Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, so many plans, France, but we couldn’t succeed on this because of the Chinese pressure. So these are some problems. Germany and Switzerland, two old theaters, they, they neglected about then they allow us to perform and tell us play was very successful in every theater and all the theater directors liked it a lot and they said like actually this is the first ever first time, like so they bought the play. So that’s why they also take a risk and bought our play. It was successful and they are very much happy to do again in the future. So this is a good success for us. And Ruhrfestspiele in Recklinghausen when we do the play and the opening of the first our play, on the same day Chinese foreign delegation is came to Germany, and German like national broadcast has mixed two news together it was very successful was like our play was happening in the evening and the prime minister came in the day in that time. And then the German Chancellor also didn’t show good reaction to the Foreign Minister and our play was nationally like broadcasted in the Germany and then even in the Ruhrfestspiele, all the news are more about our play than other plays. And he was also, the direction or the owner of the Ruhrfestspiele was also liked a lot. He invited specially for us for something and he did individually do video interviews, a lot of interviews all about our play, and it was very successful. Then in the end day from Germany, again, some Chinese delegation is came in Germany. During that time we like protest in front of the Bank of China and everything. Like that was also very successful and broadcasted. So we stayed almost two months in Germany from the beginning show to last show both some Chinese has came. So, there was also like miracle thing that happened to us like so, these are all successes of the
play.
ML:
What initially drew you to theater? Did you have an experience of a play that made you think that that would be like a good tool for activism? Have you always liked theater?
LT:
Actually, I don’t have a theater background, but when I was in school, I used to act a lot. I used to act mono acting, sometimes like in the plays, and also I always when prosperous so then I have that my own like, inner, like god-gifted talent theater is with me, but I don’t have the experience of theater
language. There are so many theater language that in the main theater like and to that- that is even I don’t feel very good for those things, it’s not better to not learn those things like this all for the intellectual people, lay people cannot understand the theater if you go from like, you see it here there is
so many if you step first right hand step, there is some meaning. So, these are only for the intellectual people like so, if lay people want to see they will never see anything if you whether you put right hand, right leg before. So there are so many rules in theater, modern theater, I even not learn that, but this is not useful for us also, because we are performing it for the uneducated people and not intellectual people. So what what it comes in why I’m talking about this right now?
ML:
I had asked what initially made you think that theater would be a good like, did you have an experience of a play or something?
LT:
So I told you, like, I read about the freedom struggles of India, French Revolutions, all these things in depth, like they’ve so many written about, theater has put so many energy in the struggle and that also useful thing like so, I have found that from such some kind of thing. So, then I felt like we really need some such kind of theater to boost our community for a better step towards, more towards success and keeping awareness about everything, like bringing out the mistakes on the stage even like so many
plays of mine are all like politics, political issues, social issues. I always try my best to like bring all on the stage, I always research mode. When I write script, I always first research the society and thing the requirement the society, then on base of that and I started writing play. So that’s why always like Audience Choice is more in my play. Often people realize that we are doing this mistake, but keep doing it. Because of the like. Not realizing much. Sometimes like so. So, so when we perform it on the stage, and then it keeps in the mind like oh, this is true, this is mistake we are doing or something like. So that brings more, like, realization to them to like realize more or remember better if we perform in this through the theater. So that is my biggest aim to develop society through theater. So my, most of my plays are not all about anti China, all about social development within the Tibetan community in exile society. Because sometimes we always like blaming everything in for the Chinese, whatever mistake happens, like for example, if some people, some Tibetan did something wrong in India, we always Tibetans have a way of saying that he must be Chinese spy! Everything is blaming on him or China, even if some like… they fight on the street or something and happened, bad thing, they say might be Chinese spy or something. So we are like, it’s very easy to like blaming everything on China
and not accepting our own mistakes. So that’s also a big dangerous thing to like, in the society, like without accepting our own mistake, so I’m trying my best to like, tell them we have to accept our mistakes first sometimes like in the even local Indian people, wherever Tibetans, Indian people are more rude. Sometimes they have to realize that Tibetans are also rude, they become rude. Before Indians are not very rude. When Tibetans are like enjoying a lot, showing up sometimes youngsters like going always in the pub in the night they are calling… if something did like that, then Indian people doesn’t like. Then they become more rude. Even when in a taxi driver, like if like Tibetans way of speaking to the taxi driver, like is a little bit rude or like a little bit more like looking Indian more lower. So this thing, sometimes we cannot… we didn’t realize it by ourselves, but it’s doing happening in the daily life. So these mistakes we have to be accept like, so, sometimes it happens like that.
FH:
Have you seen any change regarding activism for the Tibetan independence? Like over the years, because you’ve been around for so long and been active and activist for so long? How has it changed the movement?
LT:
Movement in the Tibetan activism is changed a lot, but in a better way also. But… our struggle is not about… how to say… we came to exile not because there is a drop happened in Tibet or because of the like, what to say, we don’t have nothing to eat, and we didn’t come to here. We are a political refugee. And we are a political freedom fighter. And we always think that China did everything China is killing, we are giving awareness lot. And that is very good. And it’s also, generations are improving a lot… our Tibetan younger generations are improving a lot for the interest on Tibetan freedom fight.
Reason is that, inside Tibet, they will give up. And many Tibetans inside Tibet doing self immolations more than like 157 self immolations. And there are so many Tibetans, singers, artists, writers, they are writing, singing everything for the preservation of culture, language, human rights are inside Tibet. So all about that. They’re in prison, they’re suffering, but still without fear, they’re doing that.

So because of these kinds of messages when it comes to exile community then that gives the booster to the exile community, like a booster to the community and then people get more involvement in the Tibetan freedom struggle. So even generations changes. Freedom struggle is very young. But now dangerous thing is that… this is a better part of the Tibetan struggle changes. And now more involvement younger generation specially in the western country and everything is… more Tibetans are traveling to US Europe and everywhere and wherever Tibetans they always used to do something for the Tibetans and protesting and everything like they are like started like fundings if they are from Dharamsala or if they are so… I told you so many Tibetan settlements in the south India right? So, they made their own community in USA or Europe like for example, as I mentioned you Bylakuppe, if they are from the Bylakuppe, they have make a community there too in the USA and to develop the Bylakuppe settlements, they are building some school, football ground, or something like community hole or something for their own like camps or something. So, these are a better part of the development and everything is more involved in… within the community to like develop our self. Self-stustained level, this
is the materialistic development which is very much improved. And also childrens in Western countries, they are so much better in the feelings of nationalism and patriotism and everything, because they are feeling more… like feeling of the nationless is more than India. There. So that’s why they’re very much like going more forward.

And there are also so many NGOs who are like very much active and taken… handling by the youngsters. This is the better part of the freedom struggle in improvement. But most dangerous thing what I feel is that we are… I feel like we are cutting the roots and then making it branches. So then people will see so many branches and very big tree, that tree doesn’t have root now, root is cutting in making branches. So from the outside it looks so good and very active in everything is so strong. But root is cutting… means like… His Holiness Dalai Lama when he came to exile in 1959, he first requested to the Nehru the Prime Minister of India, he requests that we Tibetans need a separate places, as I told you before, separate places to preserve our culture, language, traditions, everything. If we mix with Indians, and we, our cultural and language traditions cannot survive for a long time.

So because of that, it’s even Nehru, this prime minister also told him that it is important to have schools for the year to separate Tibetan schools to preserve Tibetan language and culture for the future generations and for the future generations of the Tibetans. So, Tibetan struggle is not one lifetime. Is for the like generations. Generations we have to fight for the right and struggle. But now, dangerous thing is that everything is materialistic and also the mind of the people are like having more idea of democracy and power and everything there’s fighting a lot, but Tibetan is missing. All the settlements are now become empty. Youngsters are all going to Western countries. Once they go to western countries, they have spirit of doing Tibetan freedom but they cannot speak Tibetan. They cannot write Tibetan. Their children, no Tibetan. Identity is the Tibetan. Culture shows the Tibetan. Language shows the Tibetan. Tradition shows the Tibetan. That’s why I’m like root cut, make branch, root cut make branch, then people sees ah! very big tree, a lot of branches, but tree doesn’t have root. So this is the biggest problem.

What I see now in Tibetan exile. People say that inside Tibet, they are struggling a lot for the freedom, like Chinese people are destroying our culture and language. They are not allowing Tibetans to learn Tibetan! But they’re speaking in English. Please you tell me in Tibetan language! But he cannot speak but he’s very active in doing these things and doing protests in the Western countries but the childrens cannot speak Tibetan. In a free country if we cannot do that then how we can blame China? Because China is purposely doing that. If they are doing that we have to preserve it like even if you are in western countries you should send your children to India to learn in Indian schools like Tibetan schools here because even as I told you, Tibetan community in exile has that much facilities that we have so many schools now. But no children. Many school has closed but still, more school less children. Even in USA, you don’t have that much facility like, but in exile community we have that much facility. Indian Government has given us so many schools, in every settlements. Indian government is funding and they have put so many schools purposely for the Tibetans only and there are so many Tibetan children’s lives they are they are so many other schools and everything no children children are about everything.

This is the biggest dangerous now happening in our struggle. From the outside it looks very big and everything, inside nothing. Now settlements are becoming empty. Only now, biggest settlements are all becoming like old age house because they’re too materialistic. They went to Western countries, kids went to Western countries, they earn money, send money back to India; they are building big big houses and big buildings and everything developed a lot but one or two more people. No youngsters.
ML:
loud music plays
Maybe we wait until this truck leaves. Someone’s having a party!
LT:
Garbage carrier.
ML:
Ah! garbage carrier.
LT:
Singing the song.
ML:
Got to pass the time somehow.
FH:
Is it an original Tibetan song?
LT:
This is a Hindi song. Because we are announcing everyone, it’s to put the garbage! The songs lyrics is all about this. (speaks in Hindi) It is saying bring out your garbages, don’t put in the drainage this will be worse, diseases, pollute rivers and also many things this. Germs will increase in your area so don’t… so then you will get sick so you have to go hospital a lot of money to you have to investment so please! So firstly he’ll say like that you have to keep your dry and wet things separately and everything. So then (speaks Hindi) means “then what should I do now if such things happening?”, then he will say like (Speaks Hindi) “now we have come here har has come. Bring your garbages and put here don’t throw it everywhere so song is very good.
FH, ML:
(laughs)
LT:
They have a lot of good lyrics inside that. This is also a nursery rhyme, kind of nursery rhyme even the children can understand what they are saying like it’s kind of nursery rhyme.
FL:
So if we focus on all these struggles, what are your goals and wishes for the future, especially for young Tibetans and for your community?
LT:
Like now, with so many like pressure and also from so many like suggestions, Tibetans in Western countries also they’re trying their best to teach Tibetans to the Tibetan children, their own children and they have made like Sunday schools for the Tibetan children and also in the Western countries, specially in Europe… Switzerland is much better than everything. So they are really— (inaudible) everything. So now my suggestion or my belief is that…first thing is that right now there are schools in exile. Also, there are so many, there is no more children right? Now, the Tibetan school started taking children’s from the Himalayan region, from the Laos from the Nepal all these things, those who are same linkage with us like Tibetans, they are who are speaking Tibetan in every day, there are so many Tibetan regions and everything goes… we our same language. So they are started bringing children’s in our schools, so they don’t have much interest in learning Tibetan political and struggles. Like so, then our children become minority they become majorities. So then even in schools, we cannot teach much political things even if we teach political issues, they will not much get interested.

So, my biggest wish is that we have a lot of schools, so keep- put them in Tibetan schools, but keep them separate from the another school and Tibetan students should be in one school. So then we can give them a better
education, better awareness about Tibetan culture and engage in everything, but now all mix up in everything like schools are now… I traveled with the play a lot and students doesn’t have any knowledge about Tibetan culture, history, everything. So, these are all dangerous things happening now. So, we have to be like, more careful than parents in which Western countries also should send their children back to India to study like minimum like till class eight or something like. Us, we also came from Tibet, parents inside Tibet also to improve for the preservation of culture and language, they have sent their children to India with sacrificing everything to India to learn Tibet and Tibetan and everything right. So, the preservation of identity is very important now. So these is what I felt all the time like, best thing is like, we have to revive again. Even like they can like keep better fees here then better
facilities also for our schools right. So these are the like, biggest hope what I am thinking of.
FH:
Beautiful.
LT:
So this is also in our struggle. Sometimes I my own personal, sometimes I feel like if Chinese didn’t torture inside, Tibetan exile cannot survive. The government or anything, nothing can survive what I feel sometimes like, because we are depending on the foreign funds, to run the government in exile to run the schools and everything even for myself… Tibet theater… I’m when I write a proposal, like I will tell stories about what’s happening inside Tibet and all then I we have to preserve our culture language. So it’s a shame also, my personal thing, sometimes I feel like we are selling the tortures inside Tibet to the world to survive our Tibetan community in exile. Wherever we go, we will tell… to get fund we always tell about what’s happening inside Tibet. Then we have our cultural language in exile. So then foreign governments, and everything funds us. If we tell about like Tibetan, it’s a pressing problem, South India, Tibetan settlements, foreign government will never fund us.

So sometimes, like NGOs and everything many things like sometimes they are like, overreacting to selling Tibetan struggles. This is also a dangerous thing. What I feel. They never thing about Tibetans inside Tibet. For example, like one young one singer has sung about the importance of the Tibetan preservation of language inside Tibet, that song become really popular inside Tibet, for example. Then in the exile, they will bring out that with the lyrics and translate into English and demonstrate like “he has sung a very good song for the Tibetan preservation of culture, language, give awareness to the world.” And in Germany, they give that message to the Chinese government that he’s singing this song for the preservation of culture and language.
FH:
They are bringing him in danger?
LT:
Yeah, same things happening a lot here. Lots of things happening here. If some people has written a good article, exile woman will say sometimes a small small things they will… for example, like inside Tibet, during the Coronavirus, they, not only in China Tibet, it actually Chinese nationally they have tried their best to hide the virus patients right? Especially inside China, they have made hospitals, not hospitals, like patients sometimes like they are like sleeping in the field where people used to make huts, small huts. They often, in roadside, they put bed and then like hospital kind of thing because no space in the hospital right? And also they cannot give the money to get better in this. But in Tibet, they have put some… what to say?
ML:
Tents?
LT:
No, they will they put in the buildings, but under construction buildings, they have put many Tibetans inside there and then they didn’t get proper food and everything. These are social problems, right? Social problems. And then there are so many Tibetans who really protest against it to the government. And they are saying in the day… they have their own like WhatsApp, they have their own channels like Tik Tok, or something Instagram, and many Tibetans have shouted like to their leaders like we are
facing this problem we are facing with life. That means they don’t have much problems by saying these things, right. That’s why they can say that. If they have dangers they never say free Tibet and everything because they knows that if they said that they will arrest but they know that if they say their
problems in the publishing the medias and also the social media inside Tibet if they say they doesn’t have any problems. So that’s why we are saying. but in exile, some NGOs and some… were taking all those clips and everything and then are all “ahh they are suffering inside Tibet”. Then started protesting in front of the Chinese embassy or wherever else they are doing that with carrying this sign that is “Tibetans are suffering inside Tibet with Coronavirus”, “Chinese are not treating well for Tibetans”, all these things showing these videos and then even the social problem become the political side. Then even they want to speak about social problems. Now it stopped. If they say, they will say you’re separatists. And China will keep… because exile government is like we are doing protest means it’s become politics right. So then these things are sometimes… we are doing very wrong sometimes like
so. But we… because many NGOs and everything needs really content from the Tibet to do protests and or like to give awareness and also there are a lot of inner mistakes also sometimes.
FH:
I have a question. When you left Tibet, do you know if you brought your parents or your mother in danger by leaving? Like was that… did she get any problems for it?
LT:
No, she will never get problems. I didn’t come by political problem I came by my family problems. So, if I run away from the family then my husband my husband and my wife, mother’s husband, my stepfather will treat better to her. Because in our village system is that we cannot birth…one family cannot get more than three children. So, I am the eldest and I’m the son. My stepfather… my mother give two births for my stepfather and these both are daughter. So when I grew up, I realized that why he is beating me. Then our… because of my father, our family is not very poor, little bit good in wealth. So then we have lot of yaks and animals in our day. So maybe he felt that if I grew up everything will take over by me and his children will get nothing because they are daughters, right? Maybe that reason. Because… why I realized is when our like…. whenever my mother or I said something a little bit like “this is mine” even like something, “this is mine.” He gets so much angry. Thing that I realized when I was in school anything, like small things, like this one, he was like, he like started shouting directly like, this is why yours like something right. So, this is because of maybe that fear he used to beat me a lot.

So after that, then again, they give one more children and that also daughter. So they have three daughters. In 2015 I get a chance to contact to my family. I came into India in 1992 since then 2015 with friend of mine, Chinese started making WeChat, through WeChat, we get a contact to meet my mother through WeChat. And parent- my daughters- and sisters and my daughter… my sisters and everyone. So there were in good condition and my sisters are saying like father is also bad, rude, to them also. And later on, children when they grew up, they separated mother and stepfather. Because there is a very big age gap between my mother and my stepfather, about 16 years of age. So that’s why like, children, my sisters themselves separated the parents and he married with my one of my auntie
about his age, my mother is like now almost almost 70-something so she’s stayed separately by herself. Now I don’t know whether she alive or not. During 2015 she was alive. So, so this means like they have spent life together even this much age gap till now. So that means when I flee, life became a little better.
MS:
Who do you get to usually act in your plays? And like how do you… how do you cast?
LT:
Yeah, so as being an individual artists, I don’t have… I cannot…keep the artists like Tibetan institute of the performing artists, I cannot keep the artists along with me and look after them, giving facilities to them. So that’s why I bring some proposals or something. When any, like proposals are booked up, a group from the CTA or some foreign supporters, then I started casting, I start casting artists with the contract basis for like, two months, three months. After we finished all the production, then we have to go by ourself like that way. So I don’t have a specific artists group who are mine artists. So, So Tibetans whoever wants to act or perform is free for them to to act. So from 10th of May we have started… we will start learning our plays so artists will come from anywhere. So most difficult thing is that it’s very difficult to get women artists or girl artists in our community. So men we will get a lot but I don’t have woman artist now only my wife. I am requesting her to act she’s good actor but we have to look after the restaurant also if we both go, but now we have to sacrifice one thing. If I, we, want to do the play. We both have to sacrifice the restaurant for months or while we’re traveling.
ML:
Why? Why is it more difficult to get women?
LT:
I don’t know. Maybe womans doesn’t like to perform.
ML:
I find that hard to believe. It’s interesting.
ML:
Who is Kawal Kapoor?
LT:
Kawal Gabor is a person who donated some fund for this building. He is the father of one film, Indian film actor, and he put about 150,000 rupees for this, building this. So, outside this big banner Niloufar Memorial Hall. She’s passed away but for the tribute or for memory of her. Her mother put about
800,000 rupees for this. So that’s why.
ML:
I would love to hear more if you’re comfortable about specific protests you’ve done with the youth, government or what is it? Youth,
LT:
Congress
ML:
Youth Congress, thank you.
LT:
Most specific thing as I told you, I tried to self immolate myself. My legs are still in not healed well, in the winter, it will get cracks, sometimes in the hot summer, it will swell. And doctor also told that if I remain alive, about 60 to 65, then my leg might be like, not more use, because my mini nerves, nerves,
what he says is, they are a little bit cramped inside. So this sometimes it’s get effect from now also like this. So sometimes like even if it’s touched a little bit, it will get wound. So this, this, this part, always get pains like so these are like some nerves are crumbled. Also here also. So that’s why this is the one of
the biggest projects and decision I’ve taken to do the freedom of Tibet.
ML:
What were you thinking about when you decided to do that?
LT:
Because… it’s kind of uncertain, because we, I was in Mumbai, Bangalore, and Chinese President planned to come to Bangalore before but then all the Tibetan settlements in Bangalore, Tibetan Youth Congress all, we had planned a lot to do protests in Bangalore. But all of a sudden his schedule to
Bangalore was canceled, maybe because of so many protests but I don’t know. Then he directly went to Mumbai, planed to Mumbai. So then I, in the one night, me and some five friends of mine went to Mumbai and we expected– it is in November. So, in winter Tibetans, all Tibetans, are, will go to sell sweaters in the Indian cities for their general livelihood. So then I expected to have, there might be, have so many Tibetans in Mumbai, so that we can collaborate to do a big protest in front of the Taj hotel or something. Once we reach to Mumbai, this Mumbai police already warned them that they have given a legal protest area where they can do protests in a ground for whole day, but they cannot do, like illegally protest in front of the Taj hotel or somewhere, like, so if they do such then they will take away their business, shops.

So with that fear, there is no Tibetan really willing to join us. So we have about only like 30 people, some are from Pune University, some are from the Bangalore, some are from Bangalore. About 37 or something so, in such number of group, the Indian police will take us very
easily and we cannot tell the world that is who is really Hu Jintao and how his, like, torture to the Tibetan people. So then I decided to do like, do drastical things so that medias will get more attention towards the Tibetan cause than the Chinese premier’s visit. So then to turn the media’s coverage
towards Tibetan struggle, then I tried to self-immolate. But, if I put oil from the top, then I cannot speak that I felt like, so if I put oil from the lower and burning from the lower and speaking from the top, it will give more like message to the world.

So with having that idea, then I started burning from the lower part but when one I started putting fire and I ran towards Taj hotel, all of a sudden one foreigner pushed me very strongly from the backside so then I felt down. Once I felt down then I couldn’t get up because of fire or something so I couldn’t go towards the Taj Hotel much. And Indian police came and extinct the fire and I couldn’t like, I was alive actually. Then really it’s, protest was very successful. And almost a month, all about Tibetan struggle in the medias. Not only like, only in the BBC, CNN here only in the CNN Asia, about 15 Second about Chinese President Hu Jintao’s economic meeting in Taj hotel, then all other medias are all about Tibetan struggle. There is no news about Chinese president’s meeting. He, Chinese president, came for meeting and Tibetian did protests, all about protests, in every like broadcasting nationally, everything. So it was almost a month the news has remained because even after one month there are so many interviewers who came to me and I have all the clips. You want to see?
ML:
Sure, yeah, yeah
LT:
[gets clips]
LT:
I don’t have newspaper clips – No, I don’t have video clips, mostly in the– or what you say
ML:
Video.
LT:
This is when I was in hospital. This is our, one of our activists who came to visit me when I was in hospital. So these are the news clips when I was burning
ML:
Wow, you were 20 years old.
LT:
This time, this one person came to visit me and he brought, made this and give it to me. He said this is when I was burning.
ML:
Goodness.
LT:
So every news channel is all about me, like, even in the economic times it came out. In the backside also there was some medias because, all about this. This is the place where Indian Government has kept the place to protest.
FH:
How does it make you feel to see that you’re in so many different newspapers?
LT:
I was feel my, missing my whole legs moving, missing like this, all burnt. They put something on me. So this, there are a lot of myths behind this like, it’s like this.
LT:
This is about, I guess this is one of Tibetan Youth Congress give me the clips doing this.
FH:
Thank you for showing us.
ML:
Yeah thank you.
LT:
I will take a picture of this and also give you so then, you can, if you want some special pictures right yes
ML:
Yes, please
LT:
I don’t have, I don’t have this picture but, so I will put a picture at this, if you want to take now you can take of
ML:
oh yeah, yeah. I can do that
LT:
But don’t, don’t take the DNA and all this stuff. Only the picture so then it might, again, problem.
ML: Yeah less.
LT:
You want to take it out so then yes less.
FH:
Yes we can edit the picture so that you cannot see anything of the soldiers’ depiction.
ML:
My goodness
LT:
Yes.
LT:
So, yes this kind of pictures I want to share some, and I will show you some theatre pictures also, later.
ML:
Please Yeah. It’s really, really amazing.
ML:
So you recovered for about how many months did you say?
LT:
Almost a month. Because I will show you some, I will see. I will check in the near future we will see. Some some articles when it comes– It’s happening on the 26th of November for some- 23rd of November yeah. Some, some medias are afternoon.
LT:
This is 5th December, So this means it was in 5th December, right. So, so after like almost some few days there suddenly some newspapers a day after even one month they came in and they do some…
LT:
Something just I remember… Some news in the original way it is okay. So, there are some newspapers came after a month or so, but like that way.
ML:
Are you in support of the Middle Way approach?
LT:
Yes, now, now. Before when I was doing Tibet– when I was young, youngsters’ blood are cold- hot, and always say ‘Independent Independent.’ But later when we study more about Tibetan independence struggle and history background and everything in major ways the best solution, what I find. Many Tibetans say like, Dalai Lama has chosen the middle path, so we are following Him because He is everything. Whereas for me like, choosing a middle path is not because His Holiness has chosen. My own knowledge and with knowing and with learning, learnt about real Tibetan history background and everything to get a proper Tibetan identity to preserve. Middle way is the best and only option one I find. Like, to preserve our culture we really need the whole Tibet, like three provinces. Internationally by law, people recognize Tibet, only the autonomous part of Tibet what Chinese used to say. Kham and Amdo region is not included in that. So, but if we really need all Tibet together then there is no option other than Middle path.
LT: [inadubile]
ML:
Is there anything else you’d like to share?
LT:
Nothing to share, no.
ML:
Thank you so much.
FH:
Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai