This is the transcript for Noor Ghazi’s interview with PPS students. You can find the Story Map PPS students made depicting Noor’s story here.
Tue, Apr 05, 2024 3:00 PM • 1:15:24
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
iraq, home, years, shia, refugees, iraqi, left, work, conflict, school, dream, feel, share, question, story, live, asked, happen, child, father
00:05
Interviewer: Alright, so starting that now, can we just get your like,
00:08
Interviewer: verbal consent for the audio recordings as well?
00:10
Noor: I do give my verbal consent.
Interviewer: Thank you so much.
Noor: Sure.
Interviewer: Do you wanna start with the first question?
00:18
Interviewer: Yes. So did you bring any image or object that you’d like to share with us so we can get to know you better?
00:25
Noor: I did. So this is … I think it’s a big part of my life. This is my stuff doggie when I was one year old, and it has a lot of meaning to it. You see, like, it has a lot of tears here. And like, it’s torn, it’s falling apart. But my little one which is nine years old … she disagrees that we do anything to this doggie. She want to keep it as it is, because she said that shows how old he is. And now that she can keep them with her. So that’s like her favorite toy. And it holds a significant story behind this stuffed doggie.
00:59
Noor: This is not a normal stuff doggie. I’m just kind of telling you that.
01:09
Interviewer: So you’re a parent too?
01:09
Interviewer: Is it just that one child or-?
01:15
Noor: I do have only one child. She’s a girl. She’s nine years old.
01:23
Noor: Do you want me to tell you about the background of the doggie? Like if it’s a gift, something meaningful?
Interviewer: Okay, yes, please tell us more.
01:30
Noor: So I’m currently writing a book. And this doggie has like a full chapter in my book just talking about him. I got this a gift from my father when I was one year old. And during that time, the gold force started in Iraq. So my first childhood memory during the war was explosions and like no power. This is like the first memory of my life. I remember it was during the time before. So as I grew up, I was very attached to this dog. And the reason why is because I grew up under the economic sanctions in Iraq. So the economic sanctions imposed in Iraq in 1990, lasted until 2003. I was born in 1989. That’s when … so the first memory I had when I was one year old. And it was during the time of the war. That is when the President of Iraq decided to invade Kuwait, which is the neighboring country to Iraq, during the 1990. And then after that, as result, the economic sanctions were imposed on Iraq. What I mean by the economic sanctions is that Iraq is the second richest country in the world with oil. But during that time, with the sanctions, Iraq was not allowed to produce and import oil, like selling oil to export materials and stuff. And everything was being exported – imported, sorry, to Iraq, it had to go through restrictions and so many different rules, because Iraq during that time was being accused of developing weapons of mass destruction. And that was proven false after 2003. So because of this accusation, Iraq was not allowed to import anything that could be leading to the … to more development of the weapons. Which I mean by that … even pencils were not allowed to enter the country because the lead in the pencil … if you like, collect 2 million pencils, you could generate a little bit of like, you know … kind of, explosive materials. So we grew up … we grew up under a great poverty. Going to school was very challenging. Kids were dying from malnutritions. And it was said that at least half a million child died in Iraq because of the economic sanctions. And so we grew up under a very difficult time, where you survive off like only one meal a day, you go to school, you don’t have pencils to write with. You don’t have desk to sit on. Your school is very destroyed. You don’t have new clothes, you don’t buy book bags … like my aunt used to sew our book bags from old jeans so we can put our books in it. So it was a very difficult time. So when I’m talking about like, you don’t have the privilege of normal life … no toys, no pencils, no notebooks, no crayons – we did not know what crayons meant. This doggie was something that other kids, they … they were jealous of, because they don’t have toys and I had this dog. So I’ve talked a lot to this doggie during those hard times as little child, but I think the most difficult time was after 2003. So 2003, The US invaded Iraq. And they toppled the regime of Saddam Hussein, right? So we were optimistic that, okay, now there’ll be no more economic sanctions and for the first time in my life, I tasted banana, which I never knew how it tastes. I remember when I was a child, I asked my father in the market to buy me one. And he said; “Look, it’s fake, because it has a sticker.”, because my dad could not afford buying it for me. And I said, “It tastes– I mean, It smells so good. I really want it.” … He was like, “it’s fake. It has a sticker.”. And I was like, as a child, in a dilemma between believing my father that it was fake, but then my sense is telling me it’s true, like, you know? So anyways, after 2003, I was very optimistic that … at that time … I was 13 years old. And then I was like, I’m gonna eat banana, and I will buy pencils and crayons. And, you know … but it turned out to be even harder because the Civil War erupted in Iraq after that between the two groups, and both our Muslim; the Shia and the Sunni. So as, the decision came that we had to leave Iraq in 2006. And in 2006, I remember that time clearly when I held this doggie, and I cried so hard. And I was asking him, I was like, “tell me, am I going to see you again?” … Because we could not get anything with us except our clothes on our, you know, backpack. And then I was just and … I asked my parents, “I want to take the doggie.”. And they said, “No, we cannot, because we just have to be very limited.”. So I remember I cried so hard. And I asked him, “Am I gonna see you again?”. And I just wanted an answer from him. And if you look at his eyes, it looks so sad. And I’m like, “Are you planning to tell me something? Am I going to see you again?”. He never answered me. But then I was forced to leave that doggie back home. And I came to the … we left to Syria, we migrated to Syria. We were displaced. And that the day we left Iraq, it was on my sweet 16 birthday. And I spent that day on the road between Iraq and Syria. And on our way to Syria, you know, we were stopped by gun-men with guns to our heads. And we were asked a simple questions of “what is your last name?”, because based on your last name, they would shoot you if you are Shia, or Sunni. And these terms I never heard in my life. I’ve heard them the first time in 2005, after the eruption of the Civil War. And to my surprise, I learned that my dad was Sunni and my mom is Shia. So we were targeted from both Islamic radical groups. Anyway, so long story short, we … we lived in Syria for two years. And then in 2008, we were resettled to the United States as refugees. And then the doggie stayed back home. And I called my aunt and I told her to take the doggie and keep him safe until I find a way to like, be able to get it. And years laters, my grandfather came to the US and he brought the doggie. So I was reunited with this doggie. And then years later, I became a mother. And I gave this to my little one.
08:12
Noor: I think she loves this doggie more than we do.
08:16
Noor: I remember the other day my husband asked her, he said “Do you love the doggie more? Or me?”, like asking about him … And she did not give him an answer.
08:25
Noor: And my … my husband walked in the room mad and he was like, “She loves this stuff doggie more than me!”
08:31
Noor: and I’m like, “I don’t know!”. And he was like, “What did you tell her about this doggie?”. I was like, “She just knows the story and she loves him like, what can I do?”. So she cannot really sleep without this doggie. And I think she is very attached to him because she knows he held all of my secrets and memories. So that’s why I think me and her, we love this doggie so much.
08:56
Interviewer: Well, thank you so much for sharing.
Noor: Definitely yeah.
09:06
Interviewer: Can you elaborate on specific challenges you faced when fleeing/resettling and their impact on you? And what was your experience of temporary refuge like during your two years in Syria?
09:23
Noor: So, I just share the story when we’re fleeing, right, to Iraq. That was on my sweet 16 birthday. It was very hard time because we were just going to the unknown. We don’t know where we’re going. We don’t know what we’re going to facing there. How long is going to take? My father told us is going to be couple of weeks. First, he– we said we’re never going to leave Iraq. And then my dad’s first cousin was kidnapped in Baghdad. He was tortured to death by electrical drills and he was thrown on the trash in Baghdad. And then they called my dad, they said, “You have to come pick him up”. When my dad went to pick him up, he found out that his cousin’s body was full of explosive material. So when my dad dares to pick them up, then it would target my father as well. As a result, he was not able to pick him up. They took him to the morgue, like the police came, and they took him to the morgue. And then that’s where my dad had to go and pick him up. Because my culture like … burying the dead is like honoring them, right, give them the proper burial. And especially my dad’s cousin were all out of the country by that time because of the civil war that was happening. And this cousin was already in Syria, he came back for two days to collect the rent and go back. But at night, the same day he arrived, he was taken out of from his bed. And then my dad said, when he went to the hospital, the way it was working in Iraq at that time, because the hospital was receiving so many big numbers of what they call them, ‘unidentified dead bodies’, because after they kill them, they take away their IDs. Kind of like they want them to be not known to their family or … by this way, also what they do is that what the family is looking for their loved ones, then the family would be targeted as well. So the family would be looking either in the hospital or police stations, right, and then the family would be targeted. So when my dad went to the morgue, he said the way that the system was operating at that time at the hospital, when they bring an unidentified body, they take a picture, and they put them away. So when the family come, they go through the pictures. This is the best way to identify them, right? My father was like … we were sitting like a lot of people looking for their loved ones. And he was like, that they’re going through pictures that was presenting on like a big TV. And he was like, the way those victims were tortured to death. He was like, “I can only imagine like, they were begging for their lives in their last moments”, you know, they were as young as six months child, which is not their fault to be born in a certain identity. And he was like, “I was forced to watch 167 images of those tortured people until I got to the number of my cousin. And to see him tortured in this way, to see him being humiliated in this way, it was hard to see what type of a monster can do that to a human being”. So when my dad came back home, he just said, “We’re leaving Iraq tomorrow”. We said, “But you said we were never gonna leave.” … He was like, “I cannot imagine that me or you as my children that I have the obligation to protect you, or your mom, to face some atrocities like this. We’re human. I mean, God gave us the body and the soul. And we have to respect it not to, you know, lose dignity in this way”. And that is why when we left in 2006 … the day we left, that’s when they sentenced the ex Iraqi President to death. That’s when they announced the verdict that he should be hanged to death. So the Sunnis were out revenging on the street from the Shia … anybody with the last name of a Shia, they would be killed. So on our way, that day, in particular, thousands of cars were leaving from Baghdad toward the borders of Syria that day, because they knew what was going to happen. And I still remember this one car full of children and men and women that was driving beside us. And every now and then we gaze at them, this little boy waves at us … we all like, were driving on one way. And when we were hitting traffic, that is when we saw a car in front of us. Three armed men got out of the car and just came towards our cars right away. That’s when they put a gun to my father’s head, a gun to my brother’s head and a gun to the driver’s head. My mom was sitting in the back beside me with my six months old sister in her lap, and me and my brother and my little sister sitting beside me. And just a simple question, “what is your last name?”. And based on the answer you will give them, either they will shoot or they will let you go. So for me, I felt at that moment, like, you know how … I don’t wish that feeling for anyone. But, when you feel like you are facing your last moment of your life, you know how they say like you see your life going right in front of you? That’s what I saw. Like I was just reflecting on everything. It was like, just split of seconds and simple question … “What is your last name?”. And when my dad said our last name, they did not shoot. Because they were Sunni and my dad’s last name is Sunni, but my mom’s Shia. So they investigated more and they made sure that we were Sunni. And they asked for the IDs, they say “Show your IDs”. And my dad put all the IDs with my mom before we left, and they had this, you know, agreement that if I said our last name and it’s Sunni and they did not shoot, then make sure when they ask for the IDs that you don’t show your ID … because you’re Shia, and if they see a Shia ID, they will murder the entire family. So my mom gave the IDs and she had to hide hers. They did not really investigate, because there were, like, many people in the car, and then they asked the driver to drive … they said, “Okay, go, drive”. So they were looking for Shia. We were able to survive that moment. But other people in the car, including that little boy who was waving, they did not survive this. And for me, I remember after that, everything just went dark, after I saw them murdering the family. And then I remember I woke up and it was night. The car was still driving towards Syria. And, I opened my eyes and I thought it was dream. And I asked my mom and I said, like, “Was I dreaming? Was it a bad dream?”. And she said, “No, that really happened”. And … I start crying. I said, “They murdered the family.” She said, “But we don’t know. We didn’t see them. We don’t know”. It’s like … “I- we know”! She was just like “We don’t know. just be thankful that we survived”. And that’s how we made it to Syria on my sweet 16 birthday. And … in Syria, we live two years. For me it was a culture shock, of course – A term that I did not know such a thing existed until like years in the US when I start educating myself and learning more, I understood that this term exist. So it was a culture shock. I think my parents were always just living on this survival mode. “Be thankful we survived. Be thankful we have the shelter, be thankful we have food on our table today”. So there is no discussion about mental health or like, ‘what are you suffering from? What are your needs?’ … Nothing like that. And, my siblings decided that they don’t want to attend the school, because they just didn’t understand the culture … There was no conversation about what you should or should not do. For me, education was a priority. And I started attending school … I just never felt that I was fit. And I saw that, like, classmates, they were … When they learned I was from Iraq, they would come all around me. They have this, like, sad looks to me that, … “oh, you’re from Iraq, and all of this car bombs are happening and the Civil War … Can you tell us about, like, you know, how did your house look-?”. It felt like I was a representative of the entire Iraqi people, like whatever I will say; that’s it. This is what Iraq is. Which I was already going through so much, and I didn’t want to talk. They were extra nice, which made me feel extra uncomfortable. And I didn’t know how to process those feelings. Until one day, during the lesson we were studying about the Iraqi literature. So Iraq as a country, or as a location on the map, is the cradle of civilization. It’s where the first letter was written on Earth … it’s where the first library was build … it’s where the First Army was found – The cradle of civilization. It’s of the first civilization of the Sumerian, of the Babylonian, of the Asurion. So like, of course, in the Syrian curriculum, you will see a lot of things about Iraq.
18:35
Noor: And then every time they would talk about Iraq, the teacher would be referencing me like, “Oh, here is Noor. She’s from-”, and I felt so uncomfortable … like, Oh, my God, when are they gonna finish this conversation? Until one day, my philosophy teacher, she welcomed me and she was like, “So Noor, can you tell us about your time in Iraq? Like, are you staying in touch with your friends?”. and that’s … I think that was a turning point for me, where I cried hysterically in the class. And I was just like, saying everything that I wanted to say that nobody ever would listen to. And I was like, talking about our house in Iraq and how it was beautiful, and how we lived a comfortable life and then now we live in a small apartment and with no furniture and we barely visit. And there’s just like, everything that I wanted to share, I just shared it at once. And then I was crying so hard. And after that, I felt so embarrassed, because like, I think a lot of things were just triggering me at the moment. But anyways, I finished my high school in Syria. And that is when we received the news that we were getting resettled to the United States. For me, it was … it was a moment of two sides. It was sad that after two years and my father saying it was going to be only couple of weeks, but now two years later, we’re even going further away from home, right, going thousands of miles away to the unknown. When they said “You are accepted for resettlement”, we did not even know which country would it be, let alone America. We thought it was either Canada, Europe … it could be US, you know. And then we’re going again to the unknown. And I’m not going to know about my friends, we’re not going to go back home. But then at the same time, I was happy because I knew I will get the quality education that I dreamed of. And that was just a priority for me. So, coming to the US was another struggle. Because when we first were resettled here, and all I dreamed about was a university, going to a university. Then our resettlement agency took me to High Point University. And that was like, the first week … All I was asking about is like, university … ‘I want to go to the university’. So with my limited English, the caseworker came in. And she said, “we’re going to go to High Point University”, and I got so excited. So they took me, I filled out an application, and then they took me to show me around in the kitchen. And then I said, “Why the kitchen, like where are the classes?”, and they were like, “No, you are going to work here, night shift … we’re gonna give you a bike, and then you can commute back and forth to work”. So for me, I did not understand this idea, I come from a different culture where a girl doesn’t work … her father should provide until she graduates, you know, so I start crying, and I felt humiliated. And I came back home, and I told my dad, like, “This is not what you promised me. If I’m not going to be able to go to college here then send me back home, even though it’s not safe, send me back home”. And then I was told by the resettlement agency that I need at least five years to save money in order for me to go to college. And that’s just felt like my dream was going away for me. And I just … ‘I’m gonna go back home’. But then I learned a little bit about the system in the US. And I learned that I can still go to community college, I can still learn English and do basic classes, and then, you know, learn and get my education. So there was a lot of struggles in the US starting with the language itself. So communication with people. It was for me, which was a big highlight, and a lot of refugees, takes them years to process this idea, which is the idea of home. For me, when even like one day – Funny story, we were in South Carolina. And you know, like how when you go to different states, they ask you where you from. You would say “I’m from California!”, or like from the different home state, right? So when they asked me, “Where are you from?” … Like, “I’m from Iraq!”, and then like, that’s not what they meant. Like, “Oh, okay, I’m from North Carolina…”. So this idea of home for me was always Iraq. When they asked me, “Where are you from?” … “I’m from Iraq”, I have no second home, I’m temporary here. Even when I got married in 2013, like when, you know, we rented an apartment, I wouldn’t buy furniture, because for me, this is temporary. I’m not decorating my house. This is temporary, you know, it was this always was for me; this is temporary, this is … I’ll get my education, you know, establish myself and go back home. So I think this idea of resisting this idea of home was a big challenge for me that I did not understand until, like, years later … Like 10 years after being in the US, I started to process and understand this idea of home. So that was, I think, the biggest challenge for me, I was not integrated in the society. I did not have American friends, because I felt I’m an outsider. I don’t know how to communicate with those Americans. That’s how I felt. That’s how I thought, you know. And then, of course, when you’re living in a country but you’re living in this bubble, where you just want to be … where you want to consider yourself as an outsider, you will be an outsider, because you’re not communicating. And that’s what I’ve done for like 10 years. I was just struggling in my own bubble. I never shared my story. I never said I was a refugee. And I never thought it would be important to share my stories like, what’s so important about my story? A lot of people, they died … a lot of people who lost homes, a lot of people who lost family members, and that’s the story that worth sharing. But my story was not worth sharing at all. So I did not speak about my story until in 2018 and 2017 when I went out and I was doing my masters at UNCG. And that’s when I start having conversations with my classmates and my professors and then one day we were talking about, like identity and like, ‘What is your identity? Who you consider yourself to be?’ … and I’m like, “Okay, I’m Iraqi!”, like again, “I’m an Iraqi”. And they’re like, “Yeah, but with your identity … there’s so many different layers to your identity. You’re a woman, you can be a mother, you can be a sister, that’s part of your identity, right? You can be Iraqi, can be American…”. Like, “No, I’m not American, I’m Iraqi”. So even though I’m a citizen – an American citizen now. But for me it was like this piece of identity has always been just Iraqi … there’s no other layers to my identity. But then I started to understand that, and I start sharing my story. And that’s when I started to be part of the community and start having discussions and start sharing my story. And yes, I’ve struggled. And it’s nothing wrong with saying that, right? But what can you do with the struggle? How do you process? How do you come out and say, “I’m fine, and I’m okay”, and how can you use mental health? This is … this is a topic that it’s a taboo in our culture. My mom is still, when we tell her like, “oh, this does exist”. And she goes like, “No, only crazy people does that”. I’m like, “Mom, no, not only crazy!”. So this culture differences and the way you process it … I think what I’ve learned – lesson learned – is that, I should have been open to change, and just have the right perspectives on how can I process these things to live in a new community and society and to be part of this community. I hope that answers your question.
26:36
Interviewer: Yes, thank you for sharing this.
Noor: Sure.
26:55
Interviewer: With your father being a Sunni Muslim and your mother being Shia, what were your family’s thoughts and feelings before and during the time of war between Sunni and Shia Muslims?
27:05
Interviewer: And what kind of conversations were being had about this in your home?
27:14
Interviewer: And was there any tension between your mother and father regarding this?
27:20
Noor: Okay, great question. So prior to 2003, this notion of like Shia and Sunni didn’t exist, because if you spoke about that, then you go to prison for a couple of years. So we did not … that’s why, me at the age of 13 years old, or 14, I did not know these terms existed in our dictionary. When I was asked at school in 2004. And they were like, “Hey, Noor, Are you Shia or Sunni?”, and I was like “What? What does that mean?”. They were like, “Oh, well ask your parents.”. And that’s when I asked my dad and he said, “Well, I’m Sunni and your mom is Shia”. I’m like, “Well, great!”. So we call ourselves sushi, like, we’re sushi, because we’re mixed. As a practice, I’ve never seen my parents practice different religion or sects, you know, it didn’t feel like they were doing any of that. After 2003, it did not change anything. And up to this date, did not change anything. And I think one day, I was given a lecture and one question came up and it was like, “So this killing between the Shia and Sunni … How is it in some countries, like, how do you guys live in peace as Shia and Sunni?”. I’m like, “Well, how does my parents live in peace as Shia and Sunni, right?”. We did not have those differences. And still up to this day, that doesn’t exist. And to add a layer to that, I’m considered Sunni because of my last name. That is how they identify you, by your tribal name. So if your tribe is Sunni, even though you’re practicing the Shia, you’re still Sunni by tribe. So, I am considered a Sunni, my husband is considered a Shia. So … if this problem was something fundamental that we cannot take it out of our society, my dad would have never agreed that I would marry a Shia man, right? Because his cousin was killed by a Shia, so it should be like “All right, let’s revenge”, right? So it was not this case. For a lot of Iraqis that was not the case. So my husband is a Shia because of his last name, but his first name is Omar, which is considered to be Sunni name. So … my husband was kidnapped twice – Once by the Shia and once by the Sunni. And they were like “What … what are you? Are you a Shia or Sunni?”, Because his last name is Shia and his first name is Sunni. So, being kidnapped twice, I think that taught him a lesson. He was like, “We should not pick name for our child that is representative of the Shia or the Sunni”. So, what I’ve done actually, my daughter’s name is Fatima, and Fatima is considered to be a Shia name. So her name is considered to be a Shia, but my husband’s name considered to be a Sunni. So when I gave her the Shia name, even when we went back home and they saw her name at the passport, they were like, “Huh? Where are you guys from?”. So her first name is Shia, and her dad’s name is Sunni, and her tribal name would be Shia, because I wanted her to carry that message in her name. There are no differences.
30:30
Interviewer: That’s really interesting. I’m really glad it didn’t cause any issues.
Noor: Yep!
30:37
Interviewer: So, what was school and education like for you before you and your family evacuated Iraq, and had any changes been implemented? Like in the curriculum, or like, what was going on at school? And I also want to add, in addition to that, something I thought of in your previous answer; Why is it that education was always so important to you throughout your life?
31:01
Noor: Alright. Well, that’s a great question. Why education was important to me … I had that scene when I was … first grade. So, we, as I mentioned, to survive off of one meal a day, that was a great deal. So Iraq is known to be number one or two in the world, of producing dates, like from the palm trees, the dates. So because during the sanction, we didn’t have anything else to eat, Iraq was
producing like, date syrup. So we were making dates off of everything, like we made cake with dates, because we want to add sweetener to it. We made like, bars with dates, we made date syrup and then we made sandwiches with them. So almost every day I go to school, I would eat, like, the date syrup sandwich. And then I’m like, “Oh, my God, I’m tired of this”, like, we don’t have cafeteria, we don’t have this idea of cafeteria – it didn’t exist. And then … but I had to protect my date syrup sandwich because it could be stolen. Because kids are hungry, they would actually steal your sandwich. So one day, I was sitting, I’m like, “Oh my God, I’m gonna eat another date syrup sandwich”. But okay, I shouldn’t be grateful, right? Because kids are dying from hunger. And then I saw those boy and a girl who are siblings, and they’re sitting down on the floor, and they didn’t have food. And then … and their weary bookbag, it did not even have a zipper or anything. The little girl, she was trying to pick up a little crumbs from the front pocket, trying to find something to eat. She found a little crumb, and she was so happy. I still remember the happiness in her eyes. She put it in her brother’s mouth, then she’s trying to find another crumbs and she could not. So for me at that moment, I just promised myself that when I grew up, I wanted become something to change the actual situation in Iraq, because in my mind, I was like, it cannot be true that all the children in the world are living in this way. However, we did not like … the TVs that we had at home, it has only two channels that were controlled by the Iraqi government. So we don’t have a view about the outside world. We don’t- we didn’t know how did the outside world look like, right? So what we have seen in Iraq, we just believe this was the reality of our world. This was how every child in the world living every day. So I promised myself that through education, I will do something to change something in Iraq. That’s why education, I think, from that moment was like a promise for me. I promised myself I would do it. How the education looked like in Iraq – The system in Iraq was set in a way to prevent you from being creative. No playing, no coloring, no art, no music, none of those creative things. When they teach you, for example, in math in a certain way, you cannot be creative to find the solution in another way. It has to be that way. So if the teacher says, like; “three plus one equals four”, you cannot say “one plus three equals four” … can not be creative. Just learn the way they teach you to do. And I think this is one way of controlling the creativity, the minds of the children in Iraq. Of course, the propaganda for Saddam Hussein, the ex Iraqi President, was in a very … it was very prevailed in our society. You always lived in fear of just disappearing by the government because the government would target anybody who speak against them or about them or make even a joke about the president. So … and because of the sanctions, of course, like … for example, during the winter, you walk into a classroom that does not have windows, of course, no heat, or because we did not have electricity during that time, and no desks or you would share a desk with like six more students and like, you’re just like pushing each other and trying to like sit down. No notebooks, no, no crayons, of course. Pencils – me and my siblings would have to share a little pencil, like throughout the entire year, because we know my parents cannot afford getting us another one. And during, for example, the summer, it gets up to 120 degrees in Iraq. And there’s no AC, no windows, and no food, and you’re expected to get a good grade. So that was like, during the time I was growing up. Now, after 2003, I don’t think about change, maybe the curriculum changed a little bit. But you’re talking about a society that was really destroyed by wars. So when I shared my first memory when I was born in 1989 … There was another war before me from 1980 to 1988, that was between Iraq and the neighboring country in Iran, and it lasted eight years. And it took the lives of million of soldiers. So you look at the Iraqi society– many houses, they don’t have fathers. And then during the Kuwait invasion of 1990, many other soldiers were killed during that time. So even when I was going to school, I was told by my parents; “do not mention the word father at school”, because many of those kids don’t have fathers. So we just have to be very careful of–. So it tells you about the Iraqi society, and it tells you about how does it look like. It’s not only poverty, but then you have the women who really have to take all this burden of raising a child. Birth control was not allowed in Iraq during that time because it was required by the government that women should produce more children to feed this conflict, to feed more wars. So we’re talking about this type of society, 2003, I don’t think it got any better. Well, I got a lot of pencils and crayons. That was a plus for me. I got a new book bag. I got a sharpener. And I got new notebooks that they look so beautiful. We got a new curriculum. The previous one was removed with any subjects that talks about the bath party, which the Iraqi President was from the bath party, so anything from the bath party was removed. But it was different because you attend the school … now it’s not safe. You really go to school over dead bodies, like we walk over dead bodies to get to school. And it was not safe attending school because a car bomb could happen. A kidnapping could happen. Random shooting could just happen and take away lives. One day, we were released to go to … To go home from our school. And I said goodbye to my best friend, and was like, “Okay, I’ll see you tomorrow”, you know, “work on our homework” … We’ll do this, We’ll do that. We had our plans. “Okay, okay … Bye, bye”. She was going towards the highway where her house was from and I was going towards the inside road. That is when I heard an explosion. The American convoy that was by our school was targeted. So when that happens, they start shooting randomly. And you have kids who just left the school and the shooting just erupted and explosion just happened, followed by another explosion. And I looked at my best friend and she falls down. And I wanted to get up to help but my teacher prevented me. She pulled me… Like “look, what happens,” it’s war right on the highway. And then the next day, I heard that she died because she was shot randomly when the convoys started just shooting at people. So she died. She went as a number, statistics of the war. And that’s what hurts, that those people, they have stories, they still had dreams. We were planning to attend the school the next day.
39:19
Noor: So it was not safe to attend the school. And that was also one of the reasons that my father decided to leave Iraq because he was like, you could die any minute. Every time my father leaves the house or we leave to go to school, we just say our last goodbyes to my mom, because we know we might not make it back. And that was the norm in Iraq. And it gets very disgusting when you normalize violence. And it’s just like, yeah, I could die, today could be my last day. Or like a person right beside you, who is a human talking to you on interacting and just falls dead. It’s like ‘how do you live with that?’ and ‘how do you process?’ you know? So the school was not any different. I don’t think we were learning much. I don’t think we were learning much. I remember my last day, my history class, when my history teacher, she called me to answer a question about history. And I got up and I just looked at her face. And I was like, “how stupid this is, I just heard an explosion from far away, I just heard the news that my best friend died, and I might leave, and I might just die from a bullet,” and she’s asking me to memorize something about history. We are history. Now. The history is writing us right now, as we speak, that we’re going to become a statistics of this war and violence. And I just stood there really not caring about what my punishment would be or like, she was like yelling at me. And like, why you’re not answering why did not prepare your lesson. And it just felt that was so absurd. It’s not worth it to answer her question, because there’s so much going on. But we’re just normalizing everything. And here, we’re expected to answer a question in history class. So those were the differences.
Interviewer: Thank you.
Interviewer: Thank you. What was her name?
Noor: Her name is Raghad. And I can write it down for you, if you want. Thank you for asking that, I always say her name.
So, I’m writing… I mentioned that I’m writing my book, and I’m having a chapter about her. And then, for six months, I stopped writing. And then I see her in my dream. She brings a homework and she say, “don’t forget to give this to our teacher”. And I’m like, ‘I did not even think about her, why do I see her in my dream?’. And then the next day, the same dream happens again. And she comes and she goes like “don’t forget the homework!”. And then when I woke up, I was like, ‘she wants me to write’.
42:23
Interviewer: How have your feelings and views changed as you’ve had time to understand your predicament from your youth and like during teenage years?
Noor: Can you say that again, please?
Interviewer: How have your feelings and views changed as you’ve had time to understand your predicament from your youth, as you’ve processed?
42:59
Noor: Oh my god, that is an amazing question. That is an amazing question. I had a turning point for that particular perspectives when it changed, you know, so I told you that I resisted or resisted the idea of home for so long, right? And I was like, ‘Alright, this is temporary. I’m just… back home is back home’. So in 2018. So I was resettled here 2008, right. After 10 years, I decided that I want to go back home. You’ve heard of the terrorist organization, ISIS, right? You have the documentary or you have watched the documentary, right? We did. Yeah. So in 2018, when I was doing my Masters, I decided that I want to go back and work on the documentary. And the reason why I decided that because, I was a mother at that time, right? I’m a mother now. And those people who lived under ISIS, I wanted to hear their stories and share their stories. Because when I was little, all I wanted is for people to see us to see me, to hear me right. And that didn’t happen. So in 2018, I was sitting at the airport, and I was writing the book. I was writing this chapter, I called it the “Return”. And then I was putting the date and I’m like, ‘Oh, my God it’s the same date, we entered the US, it was July 21’. So July 21, 2008, we were brought here, we touched the ground in the US. And on July 21 2018, I was returning home. and it was coincidence. It was not planned. So anyways, I was like ‘alright, cool, it’s going to be something to highlight in the book’. And then when we went to Iraq, I went to my childhood house. And it did not feel like home for me. Because I was a grown woman, I was a mother, my siblings were not there, my mom was not there cooking us food. And the house was empty. And that’s when I was like, ‘that doesn’t feel like home’. And then I went to my school, the same feeling. And I was like, ‘Okay, now I need to focus. I want to work on the documentary, maybe I’m just not understanding what’s going on with me’. So I go to the city of Mosul. And all I see is the entire city was down. It’s like, you know how the movies when you see like, the monster destroyed the city, and everything’s just like around you is destroyed? This is how I saw Mosul. Dead bodies were still on the ground. Explosive materials were all over the city. So if I put the wrong foot on the wrong place, I could die. And then if you watch in the documentary, when they asked me to drink the water and see how it is, and when I did, I had water poisoning for two weeks. And nothing around me was feeling like home. Like I, none of my friends I kept in touch with because when we left, there was no internet. I don’t know where they are. I did not have the courage to enter my school. I just stood outside. And the guard asked me if I were to go in, and I said, “Yes!”, excitement, so I was like “Yes I’m gonna go in”. But as I was going in the hallway, this was the only memory that I did not want to distort. Because if I walk in, and I face that reality, that’s it, I’m going to register a new memory in my head. And I didn’t want to do that. So I stopped at the hallway. Because I wanted to keep that world. And I left. And when I was sick, I was very sick. There was no healthcare in Iraq, and it was just so terrible. I told my husband, I was like, ‘you know what, take me home’. And he was surprised. He was like, ‘What do you mean, we’re home?’ I’m like, ‘No’. I was like, ‘I resisted the idea of home in the US for so long. But now I realize, I can call the US my home’. Because I was the processing that my family now is in the US, my siblings are in the US. The quality education that I want for my daughter is in the US. And me feeling respected and seen, and as a human being, is in the US. So I can call the US my home. And when I went to Mosul and I was learning about all the atrocities that happened under ISIS, I was thinking and reflecting, ‘If I lived under ISIS, and gone through those feelings in this terrible time and situation, would I still be calling this a place at home? Or would I wish to be in the US and call it my home?’. So that is when I had a turning point, after 10 years, that this is my home and when I came back to the US, oh my God. When we got to Washington airport in DC, we start driving on the highway. I felt like that was the first time I’m just seeing the US, it was totally different perspective. It was me learning about the US, it was me just going out and saying ‘this is my first time I’m here in the US’, that’s when I started being engaged in the community, that is when I started going out and making friends and that’s when I accepted the reality that this is my home. So when I came back to the US, four months I was depressed. I was in a deep depression and I was having like nightmares and I would cry everyday because you know how like I lived 10 years in the US but it felt temporary and always in my mind ‘this is home, beautiful home, I’m going to go back to, and I’m just going to be like fitting back in, right? But when I came back to the US this image does not exist anymore, in my mind. So what I’m… ‘what I am here for?’ Like I’m not, I can not work to do something so I can go back home because there’s this idea of ‘back home’ does not exist anymore. This is only in my memory. My family, me and my siblings in the house coming back from school. Having this family time– that’s not, never gonna happen again. Never in my lifetime because we’re all grown and have kids now and we’re not the little ones who are chasing each other in this house. We are not the little ones who are going to school and coming back to eat meals with our parents – we are not. That does not exist anymore, I just have to accept this reality. I sat down and I started to process and tell myself, “this is reality now, try to make a use of it” … “And you can still keep those beautiful memories”. That’s why I did not want to walk and cross this hallway because that was the only memory I wanted to keep. And I’m glad that I did that. So that’s when I started to process and accept and as the process going, I just started to chase my dream through higher education, through helping refugees, and through processing and writing. And I think when I started writing the book, that’s when I started to process everything. I started to recall memories that I never did like, especially like the memories of my 16th birthday. I just left it there. When my friend was killed. I just left it there. I never thought about it again, I did not allow myself to process or think about it. It happened, it in the past now. So yeah, 2018 was my turning point when I visited home. And I still discovering myself, but I think I’m in a very good place. Now. I would say that. I’m very glad. Thank you.
51:19
Interviewer: That was definitely something I wanted to ask just how like, your idea of home evolved cause you mentioned it earlier, but I’m really glad you answered that for us, thank you.
51:27
Noor: Yeah, and then if you want to get like a little bit more perspective, and feel free to use that, when you Google my name, you can pull up that video, it was a TEDx talk about the idea of home. So you can just get more perspective on that.
52:22
Interviewer: I think we already got what it was like returning after further restriction was done. But just like [what was it like for you] seeing the occupation from afar?
52:35
Noor: The occupation from afar? So, it was not only the occupation now… it’s the violence that erupted after that, right. I saw it from afar. And that’s why I wanted to kind of like take part into the rebuilding process. And that’s what I’ve been doing since I’ve returned to Iraq. I’ve kept a good relationship with the people at Mosul, now I’m a visiting lecturer at Mosul University. So we work on projects on the ground, trying to get these voices heard. I recently produced a short documentary, following the “Mother of two springs”. And this documentary sheds the light on the rebuilding process in Mosul. And how the city is recovering now. It is the top 10 cities in the world, that is right now, considered to be like recovering after conflict. So that makes my heart dance with happiness. So yeah, just seeing it from afar, I always want it to just be kind of like be on a positive note on the ground.
53:38
Interviewer: So how did you and your family manage your situation? What kinds of things brought you guys comfort and solace in those times, both in Iraq and like during the process of coming to Syria? And how do those things extend to the work you do now?
54:01
Noor: This is a great question. I think just like … and especially when we left Iraq, a lot of them when they were seeking refuge in Syria, the family just came together. So like all of my father’s cousins who left Iraq, and my grandfather; they lived in the same city. And then like, every weekend, they would come together and like we would cook together, we would go like, on trips to the beach together. I think that’s what brought them comfort, is … this is something we talk a lot about in the US but not back home, but it’s the sense of community. So I think that’s how they built a sense of community for themselves it’s just by being close to each other working together. For me, the sense of comfort was education. And that is what it, like, always was– education. And then how would that extend to what I’m doing today? I’m just continuing my education, always and working, in and with people and right now, especially the program that I’m working with, it’s called ‘Welcome corps on campus’, which resettles refugee students – not refugees – but refugee students. So I feel like this job was just written for me. I was like, ‘this organization was founded based on my dream’, because it was like … so that is what will bring me comfort. That’s why I feel like today I’m living my dream.
55:19
Interviewer: Sounds like you’re in a perfect position now to help out in the ways you always wanted to. Noor: Yeah.
Interviewer: That’s great. Thank you
55:32
Interviewer: Do you remember–? Or do you have any success stories? With the work you do now? And then also, part two, I guess is like, Do you remember any like, happy moments during your experience?
55:47
Noor: So I think the projects that I worked on, which are related to the work in Iraq related to my story, and what led me to lead these projects, and I think one of them was the documentary, the long documentary. This was a very hard project to work on, because it was triggering to me on so many different levels, and it took me years to produce it. And yes, two happy moments, or three happy moments of the highlights … Well, a lot of happy moments, but I will just highlight them. The first one was when I got my master’s in peace and conflict studies, which is something I feel like our world is crying for– just the peace, idea of peace. And then I was chosen to deliver the graduation speech. And you also can find it on YouTube. And then during that, on that graduation speech, I surprise my parents and I did part in Arabic so they can understand what I was saying. And I thank them in Arabic for all they’ve done. And I literally … and I think the translation is also on the video, I thank them for literally leaving their dreams behind on our doorsteps back in Baghdad just to bring us to safety, and to help us achieve our dreams while they’ve given up on their own. So that was like the happiest moment of my life. And the second one was when we did the first screening for the documentary. Because for me, it was all about bringing those stories to life, and having others to learn about them. And the third one was during my TEDx talk, because I was also sharing stories from Mosul, from my visit to Mosul, and then my own perspective. And I … for the first time I felt the power of sharing your story, because I could not believe that previous to that moment. And so these like, three, were just like some turning points in my life. And I feel like it’s a highlight … highlighted success.
58:09
Interviewer: What are your goals now that you find yourself in a unique position to help refugees through teaching and ECAR?
58:29
Noor: Sure. So I think, since I’m a big believer of education, I always try to bring those experiences to life. So through the courses I currently teach at UNC Chapel Hill. And I teach about the conflict in Iraq’s modern history. And I bring in stories to life about … this is what actually happens. I teach about the human aspect of it. When we humanize this conflict, we don’t just dehumanize it with numbers and statistics, and we share stories and then we could put a face to this conflict. I think people understand more. And I think I feel very happy when I start the class and the students are in my class, but towards the end of the semester, a couple of them each semester would come to me and say “We changed our major because of your course, because we want to make impact in our world and we thought it was not possible previous to this course”. So that’s when you humanize it, right? And when you make them feel it and touch it and hear it and acknowledge it – that’s the difference. So that is through teaching, right? And then through my position with Welcome Corp on campus, my goal is to bring as many as refugee students to the US and give them this opportunity. And then of course, with ECAR, just being there and being part of the community. So probably you would have not hear me saying that five years ago, but now you will hear me talk about the sense of community. This is also my goal to be more involved in the community and have these conversations more with people to have them understand that the world we live in, or like here in the US; this is not the only absolute reality. As we go to sleep everyday, there are millions of children who are going to bed without parents tonight, without food, or no access to education. And if we don’t be the change we want to see the world which is my favorite quote, “be the change you want to see in the world”, then I don’t think we’re doing we’re doing any good to this world before we leave.
1:00:55
Interviewer: Based on your study in the US of peace and conflict studies, how has your perception of the issues in Iraq changed? And how do you personally challenge aspects of the academisation of ethnic and religious conflicts? It’s particularly interesting to me – I’m a peace and conflict minor. And like, everything that we learn about in class about, you know, conflict resolution, conflict transformation, different peacebuilding efforts … like it’s all in theory, and I wonder how you feel that theory really translates to these real situations?
1:01:38
Noor: This is actually an excellent question, because I tried to tackle this question for so long now. And especially with my work in Mosul. For example, there was, like, a lot of challenges and pushback for my position with the university just because I was a woman. And like, how do you have a woman lead us in a way while all those men, you know, in the room … Which is crazy. And then, it’s very, very hard in Iraq
to implement some of these tools and work on them, unless you have a supportive community. So this is something I witnessed in Mosul itself. And we’ve seen the level of destruction that happened in the city. So how can you implement these tools, if there are no trust between the Christian who have been displaced, and the Yezidis who have been led through genocide with ISIS, and it was done by the majority who are Muslims of the city, right? You cannot implement any peace unless you sit down and have this conversation to be able to coexist. And I think you need to start with that, before literally bringing– … And this was one of the mistakes of the US in 2003. And the reason why the society erupted into conflict, because the US came with no understand to the Iraqi culture – they did not. And that’s what happened in Fallujah in 2004. Why the people of the Fallujah rebelled against the existence of the US coalition? Because they did not understand their culture, they did not understand that a US military man cannot go on the rooftop because there are women in the next house. And this is against the religion, against the culture and against everything that we know. So when that happens, the man of this house need to kill the military guy, because he couldn’t do this. They did not understand this culture. And as a result, a lot of conflict and a lot of things were happening in Iraq because of this miscommunication understanding. So we cannot bring in a theory of peace and conflict study and be like, “Hey, Iraqis, can you just implement this?” unless you sit down and understand the community, the culture, the religion, the type of people that you’re working with? So, you need to test the theory and the society in order for you to see if this specific theories would work here.
1:04:02
Interviewer: And in order to build trust with the community as well, right?
Noor: Right. Definitely, that’s number one.
1:04:07
Interviewer: Thank you.
1:04:23
Interviewer: What parts of your story do you find the most imperative to put out there? What do you feel are some of the most valuable things to share with others?
1:04:38
Noor: I don’t know … What do you think what was the most important part of my story? It’s hard to pick and highlight.
1:04:46
Noor: I think it’s important to put the idea of how to process those feelings in a healthy way as a refugee, while understanding to keep your culture. So I’ve heard from some refugees who would come here, they would say “you need to forget about your country … because you’re living here now, you need to respect the country you are living in and you need to be Americanized in a way to be able to fit”. So many of our generations, as refugees, they don’t even speak their own language. Like the mother language … they would speak English only. They would say, “um, yeah, it’s kind of like, if you speak your mother language, then you are looked down at because you’re not American”. I think this is a misconception. I feel like this strength of having your own culture and home country to call home. And you have the second one that you’re having here, which is that American culture and home. So when they asked me right now and they say, “where are you from? Like, what is your home country?”, I would say “I’m privileged that I am an Iraqi American”. Now I understand, this is a strength, not weakness. And that’s why with my little one as well … The other day, my husband said, she was representing Iraq in school and she got the flag and like the Iraqi tradition, and she was like, so excited and dancing. She was like, “I’m Iraqi!”
1:06:13
Noor: My husband said, “Well, you know, you’re American, right?” and she started crying. She was like,“I’m not American, I’m Iraqi!”. He’s like, “No, that’s not what I meant”.
1:06:20
Noor: But you did not … You weren’t born there. So you’re not technically … So you’re technically not Iraqi, you’re American. She was like, “No, I’m Iraqi”, which for me, it felt like, this is a strength that she’s considering herself Iraqi American, right? She has two cultures and she has two languages. And she can speak on behalf of both. So I think the most important part that I found myself within these two cultures, and religions, and societies … and I’m two, I’m not only one, which I am privileged, right? So I think this is important to share.
1:07:04
Interviewer: Thank you.
Noor: Yeah, sure
1:07:06
Interviewer: So, sorry – just like a follow up question to that. So, like, what kind of recommendations would you give to refugees today for, like, finding that balance? Because it seems like based on your story, you have eventually found your way. But it took 10 years of, you know, being stuck in these complexes, which I imagine is not the most ideal thing. So like, what would you suggest to refugees to find that balance?
1:07:30
Noor: So this is a great question, and we have a lot of conversation about that … is that, you be open and accepting the new reality, do not resist it. This is your second home. Just accept that fact. And you have still another home, you can go back to whenever it’s … whenever you can, right? You can keep still that beautiful home and memory that you left, but accept the new home. And I think it took me 10 years to accept that. Yeah.
Interviewer: Thank you.
1:08:09
Interviewer: Is there anything else that you’d like to share with us?
1:08:12
Noor: Anything else? Let me see …
1:08:18
Noor: No, I think you guys had a very excellent questions. I think those were the best questions that I’ve ever had in any interview. They were very inclusive. But yet, they would hit points that will make me talk. So you guys have done an excellent job. And I’m really … Thank you for taking the time to interview me today.
Interviewer: Thank you.
Thank you.
So, I am really looking forward to your book.
1:08:58
Noor: So the book cover will include this doggie. Yeah, my little one is on the book cover with the … holding the doggie. Thank you.
1:09:09
Interviewer: Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. And also thank you for the documentary you made and for allowing us access to it. It really was so helpful for like, understanding the context.
1:09:19
Noor: Well, that’s great. Thank you for taking the time to watch it. Yeah, I really appreciate it. And if you have any follow up questions, if you need any, like resources, just send me an email this week. We can communicate and share more resources.
Interviewer: Okay, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
1:09:49
Interviewer: What is the name of that TED talk you were talking about?
1:09:51
Noor: So you can just Google my name and go to videos and you’ll see it but it’s called “Lost my home for 12 years”. And then also you’ll see the graduation speech, that is, yeah … graduation. I still cry when I watch it.
1:10:11
Noor: I still cry. Yeah, it’s um, you know, especially like when … when you want your parents to feel it, so it’s like, they were sitting there but they don’t speak English and I’m like, ‘Okay, I want to surprise them’. So when I start speaking in Arabic, my mom was like, “ohhhhh!”, and then Tala was little one. So, her name is Fatima – Fatima, and then Tala, so I give her like two names. So she was sitting there and she was little at that time. She was like, what, three years old? And then she just wanted to eat … she was hungry. And then when I finish, she screamed from like the top … she was like, “Are you done yet?” Yeah. Kids, right?
1:13:20
Noor: It’s like, all the … all the students who’ve like, done peace and conflict studies with me, they were like, “Oh, we don’t know what to do with this major”. And like, my family back home, every time I say peace and conflict studies, because we don’t have this major in Iraq, they were like, “Oh, what is this?”. So I just say ‘political science’– that’s the closest I could say, but now it is such a very needed program in Iraq. They hire, like, people from outside who does have peace and conflict studies. They implemented diploma peace and conflict studies in Mosul University. And they really are looking forward to implement masters in peace and conflict studies. So this is very exciting. It’s good.
1:13:56
Interviewer: Do you think you would like to go there permanently to teach? I know we didn’t talk about that.
1:14:03
Noor: So yeah, like down in the future. I would love to, Yes. And especially work with nonprofits on the ground and teach at the same time differently. Yeah.
1:14:18
Noor: Oh, yeah, that’s like another dream of mine.
1:14:20
Noor: I have a lot of dreams.
1:15:00
Interviewer: Well, thank you so much.
Noor: Is there anything I can answer for you at the moment?
1:15:05
Interviewer: So I did have one more just like a quick question. If it would be okay with you. Could we take a photo of your doggie?
Noor: Please!
1:15:13
Noor: Okay, I told my little one, I’m like, “so you don’t want me to fix him? Because he’s gonna be on TV”. That’s what I told her. “He’s gonna look so bad on TV”. She was like, “that’s even better. He’s gonna tell a story”.
1:15:24
Interviewer: I think she’s right.
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